The Fantaverse Members Top 20 Games of All-Time

[numbersix]

Once again it depends on what you play. They've used Portal in a college course that explored what it's like to be human.

Huh? Were they teaching aliens?

Flower is like an interactive painting.

But a painting shouldn't be interactive, it should be itself. This is kinda why I don't see games as art. I suppose art needs to be the expression of a point of view, and the interactive nature of a game is the opposite of that in some ways.

Like I said before, RDR is like a great western.

Hmmm... I can't say, but I certainly wouldn't say sandbox games ar elike movies in any way. Fallout isn't like a sci-fi movie (great or not), GTA isn't like a great crime movie, etc. Maybe RDR is different (and indeed, John Hillcoat made a movie out of the RDR engine didn't he?) but I'm a little skeptical.

I would call Myst art.

This is the only one of your examples I have played a bit of, and I honestly never even thought of it as art, as it's really just a puzzle game. Again, there's pretty images but no real expression of sorts

They're few and far between, but so are major films nowadays.

Well, I recently counted I've played about 200 games in my life (probably more but I can't remember all the Amstrad ones), and I've never played one that I would consider to be artistic in the same way cinema is. Perhaps my view of art is too narrow, or too classical, but ultimately I see video games more akin to sport. It's a game, something you can enjoy, but not an art.

[NSpan]

edit: i started writing this, got distracted with that whole WORK thing, and didn't get a chance to hit 'submit.' since then, most of this has been said--but i'll say it again anyway:

Most videogames, in my opinion, should simply be considered puzzles. Some are more challenging or complex than others--but puzzles nonetheless. It's when stories, themes, or anything else thought- (or emotion-)provoking is added to the equation that we get into a gray-area regarding what constitutes art. Before getting into specific examples of games that may qualify, I think the big question is this: can art be interactive? Can the audience AFFECT the art and still call it art? Certainly there are real-world examples of pieces or works that require interaction or have been called "living" art... and, heck, ANY live performance of any kind is shaped to some extent by the audience. If theater can be considered art, I think we've already made a case for the legitimacy of interactive art.

If we agree on that, we can begin talking about the capacity for videogames to qualify as "art." I think it's important to talk in terms of potential before delving into specific examples. Whether or not the medium has actually succeeded in creating great art is a separate discussion. Because, at the end of the day, bad art is still art ... right? (Or is it?)

[numbersix]

A good point, and W made it earlier by saying Transformers is just entertainment. Part me still thinks, however bad or vacuous, it still expresses something, whether well or not, whereas a video game doesn't.

As for theatre, I'm not sure I can agree if audience can affect it, at least not in any truly significant way. Does an audience affect the performance of a Shakespeare play, or Beckett, or Pinter? Not really. Perhaps only if there's an extended pause to allow laughter, but the expression remains the same.

As for "interactive art" I haven't experienced much of it, and what I have I funnily failed to respond to it. Without any analysis at the time, I simply saw it as a novelty and focused more on what I considered, unconsciously, to be "real art".

Again, I'm not saying I'm irrefutably right, I just trying to work through why I never considered a video game to be art in any way.

[NSpan]

One can appreciate a play just by reading it... but a play isn't fully realized until it is being performed in front of an audience. The written word, in this case, is nothing but a blueprint.

And, sure, the end result of the interaction between performer and audience may not necessarily alter the performance significantly--but the element of exchange is present. And, to justify the concept of "interactive art," all we need is a starting point.

[W]

A game expresses something if you consider it to express something. Something as simple as trying to save a bunch of Lemmings from falling to their death shows something about humanity, and trying to kill them as fast as you can shows something completely different... If that's what you read into it. I don't really go into games thinking I'm a part of art, but then again I never think of movies that way either.

...and Portal in the classroom: http://mashable.com/2010/08/24/portal-college/

They teach Portal with Hamlet, Aristotle, The Epic of Gilgamesh, and other works. I'm a few blocks from that school sometimes when we decide to go to Crawfordsville, so it was kind of funny to see an article about it. And does Portal have aliens in it? Or were you saying something else? Because I haven't played the original and am only a little into the sequel...

[silversurfer19]

Something as simple as trying to save a bunch of Lemmings from falling to their death shows something about humanity

[Ahem] Yes, that was exactly what I was trying to communicate when I was emphasising my love for Lemmings....

and trying to kill them as fast as you can shows something completely different...

Oh...

Am I an emotionless psychopath?

[numbersix]

A game expresses something if you consider it to express something. Something as simple as trying to save a bunch of Lemmings from falling to their death shows something about humanity, and trying to kill them as fast as you can shows something completely different... If that's what you read into it. I don't really go into games thinking I'm a part of art, but then again I never think of movies that way either.

...and Portal in the classroom: http://mashable.com/2010/08/24/portal-college/

They teach Portal with Hamlet, Aristotle, The Epic of Gilgamesh, and other works. I'm a few blocks from that school sometimes when we decide to go to Crawfordsville, so it was kind of funny to see an article about it. And does Portal have aliens in it? Or were you saying something else? Because I haven't played the original and am only a little into the sequel...

By b your logic then everything is art, Anything can be related to make a statement, and anything can express something if you want it to. Inaminate objects, my toenails, etc. Surely a line must be drawn somewhere, right?

MY alien reference wasn't to the game, it was the idea of teaching someone what it is to be human.... as if they weren't.

Anyway, looking at the Portal essay on which the class is based, it seems more like an attempt to keep the class interested. Portal is used as an illustration rather as an artwork or text in itself. It's as much "art" as a lecturer using an anecdote to illustrate a core idea.

[W]

4

W



Contra 1988 (NES - Run and Gun) - Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A. If for no other reason at all, Contra deserves a spot in gaming history because of that. It wasn't the first to have cheat codes, Hell, it wasn't the first to have that particular cheat code, but it popularized them because its diffuculty required 30 lives per continue. Luckily it's much more than just "the game that popularized cheat codes." It's actually one bad ass throwback (well, present at the time) to 1980's jungle and alien action films. The sidescrolling shooter was named the "Toughest Game to Beat" by IGN, thought I've beaten it without using a life once before. Basically this game has two different type levels to it. Most of the game is a run and gun platformer with alien soldiers, turrets, falling rocks, and other things to watch out for. The second is the base levels, more of a 3D (for the time) view where you have to destroy targets to get to the next level. Each level has its own unique boss which can be tough to beat. The power ups (spread, machine gun, laser, and fire) and add-ons (rapid and barrier) are a lot of fun (everyone's a badass with rapid spread). There's not much in terms of story, just like most games of the time, but you can tell the story yourself as you go along. Easily one of the best games of all time.



Ron Burgundy



Red Dead Redemption 2010 (PS3/360 - Western Sandbox) - Funny enough, i just bought this game the other day, but i played my mates version to death last year when it came out, i had about a month of time off before i started my new job and this was a great way to kill that time. Great detail went into making this game and it really paid off. You get a great sense of being in the old western days here and you have the choice of being good or evil.

[NSpan]

#4
Loom
(LucasArts) - PC
(1990)

When compiling this list, I was pretty sure that this title would crack the top three. But, when it really came down to it, no adventure game earned such an accolade. For as much as I love the (nearly extinct?) adventure genre, I've simply sunk more hours into strategy games. Much like my "Top 100 Favorite" movie list, I dispensed with pretension and tried to simply rank games based on how much time I've spent with them. There are powerful films that I consider to be brilliantly crafted and well-executed masterpieces... but, at the end of the day, I opt to watch Star Wars (my #5 pick) more often than 8 1/2 (my #10 pick). In a similar fashion, even the best adventure game has less "replayability" than the best strategy games. I think this is interesting to note within the context of our recent "video-games as art" discussion. Out of my top three favorite video games, I could make a strong case for only one being (possibly) "art." That said, my #4 pick, Loom, is a fucking artistic masterpiece.

Loom is a beautiful reinterpretation of Swan Lake. Before you dismiss it as derivative, consider the fact that this is a genuinely unique game with an engaging story that (wisely) utilizes its source-material primarily for music and a simple starting-point. The game stands proudly on its own merits. The original game came packaged with an audio cassette that served as a prologue to the storyline. The cassette was interesting but, as with many prologues, isn't necessarily essential to understanding the story. In fact, the story unravels organically simply by playing the game itself. That said, I don't fault the designers for the multimedia inclusion. If anything, it places Loom in the framework of the epic-style of Dune or Lord of the Rings.

The gameplay itself is, superficially, LucasArts taking lessons from Sierra's mistakes and, not only correcting them, but streamlining and simplifying the entire process along the way. The text parser was gone, but even the action menu familiar to most LucasArts games is missing. Bobbin Threadbare is controlled by single clicks. These clicks work intuitively, whether you are trying to move your character or inspect a location. Bobbin can manipulate his environment (and, at times, himself) with a distaff. Using musical notes, the equivalent of "magical spells" are cast using memorized melodies. Logically, spells can be reversed (not always to the anticipated end) by drafting the same "magical" melody backwards.

Loom is a beautiful experience from start to finish. I think the word ART can be applied to this game without hesitation. Its strongest attributes are the presentation, storyline, and atmosphere. It draws on much, but it also provides an entirely new framework for ancient themes that have been perpetually addressed through art since the beginning of civilization.

[numbersix]

#4 GTA: Vice City - 2003 (PC, PS2, XBox)



I remember playing a PC demo of the first GTA before it came out, and loving it. I had no idea how massive it would become. The PS1 version of the game was a little disappointing due to its limitations, but the franchise was in place. I skipped the sequels until a few years back I downloaded this for the PC. And man Rockstar had progressed. The missions were varied, the vehicles abundant, and the map and side missions meant hours of extra gaming. I rate this above San Andreas, mostly because I stopped playing Andreas as it almost felt too huge, too sprawling. But Vice city is also more fun, with its empahsis on parodies of iconic 80's TV and cinema, not to mention the great soundtrack. I enjoyed this game so much I even toiled to get 100% completion.

[numbersix]

Contra: Great game, loved the addition of the base levels.

RDR: Never played it, might get to it some day

Loom: Remember hearing about it but don't think I played it. Sounds interesting. The art debate continues. Let me ask you this.... did you have an emotional response to it? I guess I'm trying to differentiate between it being a story or a form of expression, as opposed to a nice-looking theme park ride.

[NSpan]

Loom: Remember hearing about it but don't think I played it. Sounds interesting. The art debate continues. Let me ask you this.... did you have an emotional response to it? I guess I'm trying to differentiate between it being a story or a form of expression, as opposed to a nice-looking theme park ride.

Emotional response? Check. And by means of the story (which was strengthened by the art design, music, and overall atmosphere). That said, I'll probably bring up an example of a game that I also consider "art" that has almost no discernible story at all.


Regarding Portal being studied at the university level... I think the game is worthy of in-depth analysis, but that in itself certainly doesn't make it "art." But I stopped reading when the professor obviously didn't understand the joke about "enhancing the truth."

[W]

Red Dead Redemption was almost a part of my list... Partially because I was playing it at the time. It's aesthetically pleasing with great characters and a really good story as well as some good mini games (liar's dice being my favorite). I need to finish it so I can start Undead Nightmare which I've had since Christmas.

I really liked LA Noire and Red Dead Redemption, though less the further out I get from playing them. But the GTA Series (Vice City in this case) I never really got into that much. I don't know why considering the music is great and it's a modern day version of the two I mentioned before. I can play GTA IV for free because my brother has a copy and it's rated one of the best titles for this generation, so I'll give it a try some day.

I've never heard of Loom if I come across it some day I'll be sure to try it out, though.

[W]

3

W



Super Mario Bros. 3 1990 (NES - Platform) - The real sequel to Super Mario Bros. It did everything that a game sequel should do: enhanced it technologically, amped up the powerups, and kept the spirit of the original while still being it's own game. It took the game that popularized platformers and added a theme for each world (giant world, desert world, water world, etc), better end of the world bosses; who were Bowser's seven kids which were named after Iggy Pop, Roy Orbison, Lemmy from Motorhead, Beethoven, and other musicians... and Larry King and set at the end of airship levels; and pretty awesome powerups (the racoon suit, frog suit, tanooki suit to name a few).

Each level felt somehow different than any other level in the game, though still fit into the context of the world's theme. Secret warp whistles were scattered throughout the game and made it easy to play whatever world you wanted. It's the first game I can remember to actually have mini-games with it like the original Mario Bros. (the sewer one), the card matching game, and the slot machine matching game. Even how you finished the level was a game all in itself because if you hit the box at the end at the exact right time, you'd match what you got the last time. And who can forget dying a thousand times on the sun level in the second world or eighth level airship and saying "Screw it!" and P-winging that bad boy? And unveiling one of the baddest games of all time in a Fred Savage movie? Pure genius! Enough said.



Ron Burgundy



Civilization V 2010 (PC - Turn-Based Strategy) - It might just be the buzz at the moment, because im currently playing this game now, but i have played every version since number 2. A terrific strategy game.

[numbersix]

#3 Tomb Raider - 1996 (PS1, PC)



On retrospect I've placed this a little high, though it would probably be Top 10 anyway. This game really made the most out of the PS1. It was a great 3D platform shooter, but where it really blew me away was in setting up memorable moments. Moments I can still remember a decade after playing it last. The attack of the T-Rex, the discovery of the Roman colloseum (as giant lions race twards you), the shootouts with human enemies, the water-filled dungeon, the falling swords maze, and then the battle on the sphynx against horrible aliens. Dense, difficult, but a blast, this is one of gaming's greatest moments.