Fantaverse Top 100 Albums of All Time (THREAD #1): #70-#61

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silversurfer19
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Fantaverse Top 100 Albums of All Time (THREAD #1): #70-#61

Post by silversurfer19 »

New thread. Keep the picks coming guys, and if you can all try and stick to the format of, for e.g:

Les Miserables Original London Cast, "Les Miserables", 1985
And include the name of the song you wish featured (as sometimes my flash player blocks me seeing the video)
And just the URL code for the video is better too, saves an extra few of my ever so precious seconds!
It would be much appreciated if you can all do this, keeps everything moving a lot quicker for me.

Anyway, on we go...

Album No.70

Alyson
The Who, "Live at Leeds"
, 1970

Image

"Young Man Blues"


englishozzy
The Raveonettes, "Pretty in Black"
, 2005

Image

"Ode to L.A."

"My Boyfriend's Back"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2-ar-LDLZY

Geezer
Weezer, "Pinkerton"
, 1996

Image

1.Tired of Sex – 5 stars
2.Getchoo – 3 stars
3.No Other One – 4 stars
4.Why Bother? - 4 stars
5.Across The Sea – 4 stars
6.The Good Life – 4 stars
7.El Scorcho – 5 stars
8.Pink Triangle – 4 stars
9.Falling for You – 4 stars
10.Butterfly – 5 stars

Despite NSpan's best efforts to convince you otherwise, this is NOT Weezer's last album. It IS, however, one of their very best. Also, I'd have to say that this is the ABSOLUTE point where I could have probably started this countdown. Everything from this point on are just too important to me that they couldn't have not been shared, not that those before it aren't amazing, I just can't ever imagine a point in my life where Pinkerton and those above it wouldn't be on a list of my top 100 albums.

"El Scorcho"

"Tired of Sex"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu2Dsnvk6M0

BleedBlackandGold
Dead Kennedys, "Fresh Fruit For Rotting Vegetables"
, 1980

Image

The debut of the legendary San Francisco punk band set the tone for one of the strangest bands in history.

"Let's Lynch The Landlord"


Leestu
Syd Barrett, "The Madcap Laughs"
, 1970

Image

There is something unique and special that comes from the honest purity of a drug fucked hippy. Syd Barrett's debut solo album after leaving Pink Floyd was apparently a bit of a nightmare to make but I think it is a bit of a masterpiece, not despite of, but because of its flaws.

"No Good Trying"

"Octopus"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k5WQnfCjmk

NSpan
To Be Added At Later Date

numbersix
Miles Davis, “Kind of Blue”
, 1959

Image

While I’m far from being a jazz aficionado, I am partial to a bit of it from time to time, even if it’s the classics like A Love Supreme or this. I’m not sure if I’ll ever get beyond the rather unfair description of jazz being music to relax to, or to play when you’re serving your sophisticated friends some amuse-bouche. But at times one can’t help but admire the complexity of the drums, the beauty of the trumpet, and the rhythm of that cool-as-ice double bass. So yes, something to relax to, and perhaps one day it’ll be something be in awe of.

"Freddie Freeloader"

"Flamenco Sketches"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3W_alUuFkA

Ron Burgundy
To be added at later date

silversurfer
Beck, " Odelay"
, 1996

Image

I first encountered Beck with "Loser", his lo-fi breakout hit, but it wasn't until Odelay was released that I actually took notice. I remember sitting listening to radio one in the UK and Stevel Lamacq played a track from the record prior to its release, it was "Where Its At". I was amazed, the manner in which the guy could compile numerous different genres of music and make it both interesting and fun astounded me. As soon as I could buy the record, which at that time I was on holiday in Andorra, I picked it up, along with Mellow Gold at some music store and got the added bonus of no tax! Anyway, I listened to both records, and it's shocking how much better Odelay is than its predecessor, there was like a meteoric shift in his abilities. Odelay was stunning, continuing the format I'd noticed from Where It's At of combining styles, genres and instruments into something quite wonderful. There is pretty much something for everyone on this record, a mix of blues, folk, rock and dance. It's so diverse, but at the same time completely cohesive. And that's kind of the trait his career has followed, with him continuing to span genres (I was pained to leave his follow up to this, Mutations, off my list, as its a great folk/blues record which takes many of the influences from tracks on here such as "Lord Only Knows" and "Jack-Ass"), and constantly being inventive. His masterpiece, for me at least, is Odelay, but man, this guy has some talent!

"Minus"

"Where It's At"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPfmNxKLDG4

transformers
Linkin Park, "Meteora"
, 2003

Image

Linkin Park was the number 1 band that set off the chain of getting me into metal. This record is super-catchy and fun nu-metal record that I have a blast revisiting. A lot of nostalgia value in this, but it's still a great record on it's own.

"Faint"

"Lying From You"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V4FLUOlMks

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Re: Fantaverse Top 100 Albums of All Time (THREAD #1): #70-#

Post by NSpan »

#70

Paul McCartney - McCartney (1970)

Image

side one
"The Lovely Linda"
"That Would Be Something"
"Valentine Day"
"Every Night"
"Hot as Sun/Glasses"
"Junk"
"Man We Was Lonely"

side two
"Oo You"
"Momma Miss America"
"Teddy Boy"
"Singalong Junk"
"Maybe I'm Amazed"
"Kreen-Akrore"

This was hardly the first solo endeavor by a Beatle, but its release officially marked the end of an era. McCartney released a press release with advance copies of the album declaring his departure from the band. Abbey Road (the band's truly final album) had been released approximately six months prior and Let It Be (the Beatles' second-to-last album, which had been stuck in post-production hell) would be released only weeks later. People expected BIG things from McCartney. So, obviously, it was a bit of a shock when he released this unassuming, homespun, minimalist, 35-minute LP. The production on Abbey Road was big. And Phil Spector's production work on Let It Be would be bombastic. Paul was the vocal dissident when it came to Spector's "wall of sound" approach. And, in hindsight, McCartney's self-titled debut album was the perfect response. With the exception of some backup vocals courtesy of Linda, every single sound on the album is Paul. He sings, harmonizes with himself (through overdubs), plays bass, drums, acoustic/electric lead/rhythm guitar, piano/mellotron/organ, and even a toy xylophone. John and George would stick with full bands and big producers (Spector, specifically) for their solo debuts. But these guys had something to prove. Paul was free to do what he wanted--having been known as the leader of the biggest band in the world (despite historical revisionists who have cromulently embiggened John's role). Making simple music packed with honest emotion and organic sounds was his prerogative. He had earned it. The initial reception was mixed (with some truly scathing reviews on the negative end of the spectrum). But, with time, McCartney has come to be regarded as a miniature masterpiece. For all the studio wizardry he had pioneered, Paul proved that he could create beautiful melodies without any tricks or gimmicks. Given a four-track recorder, an instrument, and the freedom to write what he felt, Paul McCartney reminded the world that he was responsible for the unparalleled pathos of the Beatles' music.

"Oo You"


"Junk"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6qfQ5BEQ2s
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Re: Fantaverse Top 100 Albums of All Time (THREAD #1): #70-#

Post by numbersix »

Aly: Never got into The Who. As I started listening to this song I was really digging it. But if I'm honest I drifted a little. I think the problem with 70s rock (even if it's 1970) is that until punk came along there was a lot of excess going on.

Ozzy: As before, they're entertaining but a tad forgettable.

Geez: Really enjoyed both songs. A good mix of rock with some really catchy hooks. I think I prefer their debut but this sounds almost as good.

John L: Already high on my To Get list. That song (highly influenced by garage rock) only made it jump a little higher up.

Leetsu: I'm not sure if it's the messy style, or the fact that I'm not a big fan of Floyd and their associates, but this didn't do much for me.

Nspan: Never heard these songs before. But that's not a surprise as I only really admire The Beatles. This is a perfect example of what happens when a major band splits and its members go solo. You can hear all the elements which came together in the main band's sound divvy the styles out. So none of them really came close to the quality of the main band. There's some nice, toe-tapping moments in this record (mostly in the first song, the latter was a little dull, to tell you the truth), but it just doesn't sound exciting enough.

SS: This album was so huge in the 90s. Probably because of Loser. I've never been motivated to get it, although that first song was pretty cool.

Tranny: Well, at least now I know why I hate these guys ;)

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Re: Fantaverse Top 100 Albums of All Time (THREAD #1): #70-#

Post by NSpan »

Alyson The Who, "Live at Leeds", 1970
One of the best (official) live albums ever released. Also my favorite record by The Who. If I didn't omit live albums, this would've definitely been in my Top 100. Six complained that it sounds "excessive"... well, shit, The Who INVENTED excess. But unlike never-ending tracks by ELP (Emerson Lake & Palmer) or Genesis, The Who weren't noodling around. They weren't experimenting for the mere sake of being experimental. When The Who embodied on-stage excess, it was because they were a band overflowing with talent. Physics simply wouldn't allow that much greatness to be emanating from four mortals on a single stage. That is, obviously, why they had to destroy their instruments and the set itself at the end of each show--they were protecting the space/time continuum from imploding!

englishozzy The Raveonettes, "Pretty in Black", 2005
You know my thoughts. Awesome album. "Ode to LA" is one of my absolute favorites. Unfortunately, I doubt this album will appear again on the countdown... which means "Sleepwalking" won't get to be featured as a selected track. Bummer! PS. The nay-sayers are just jealous that they're so late to the party. ;)

Geezer Weezer, "Pinkerton", 1996
Great choice. I might need to remember that you already selected these two songs in the event that this album shows up on my own countdown in the near future..

BleedBlackandGold Dead Kennedys, "Fresh Fruit For Rotting Vegetables", 1980
I own Bedtime for Democracy as well as the compilation, Give Me Convenience or Give Me Death. Never thought I needed more... but maybe I'm wrong?

Leestu Syd Barrett, "The Madcap Laughs", 1970
If I'm to be honest, this wasn't a consideration for my Top 100. But that doesn't mean I don't thoroughly enjoy it. It's a bit sad to listen to (especially when compared to his Floyd work). I think his hand was being held throughout these sessions. But who better to be holding that hand than David Gilmour (bass, guitar, production), Roger Waters (production), and other veterans of 60s psychedelia?

numbersix Miles Davis, “Kind of Blue”, 1959
I remember you hinted at this showing up somewhere on your list. Glad to see it made the cut. Good choice!

silversurfer Beck, " Odelay", 1996
After never quite seeing the appeal when he first broke into the mainstream, I've warmed up a bit to his music. Nonetheless, I still think it's a bit overrated. His mid-90s records make me think of the type of "stepping stone" albums that helped a lot of people get into a wider spectrum of genres. So, to that end, two thumbs up!

transformers Linkin Park, "Meteora", 2003
I have a friend who loved these guys and played them any time I was in her car. Because of that, I associate the music with good times... but it's not something I would've ever sought out myself. Really, really, really not my bag.
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Re: Fantaverse Top 100 Albums of All Time (THREAD #1): #70-#

Post by NSpan »

numbersix wrote:Nspan: Never heard these songs before. But that's not a surprise as I only really admire The Beatles. This is a perfect example of what happens when a major band splits and its members go solo. You can hear all the elements which came together in the main band's sound divvy the styles out. So none of them really came close to the quality of the main band. There's some nice, toe-tapping moments in this record (mostly in the first song, the latter was a little dull, to tell you the truth), but it just doesn't sound exciting enough.
Your response is fair enough, but I'm still a bit puzzled by your musical preferences. You've featured near-ambient electronic music, yet a melodic pop/rock song played quietly isn't "exciting enough" for ya? Is there a consistent line of thinking in there? Or is it simply the time of day that determines your patience for softer music?
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Re: Fantaverse Top 100 Albums of All Time (THREAD #1): #70-#

Post by numbersix »

Consider it my clunky attempt to verbalise why it didn't register with me. Perhaps it's a poor choice of words.

That said, just because electro-ambient music isn't fast doesn't mean itn's not powerful and exciting in some ways!

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Re: Fantaverse Top 100 Albums of All Time (THREAD #1): #70-#

Post by Leestu »

Alyson The Who, "Live at Leeds", 1970 - I should get around to getting this as I've heard only good things and I do love the early Who material. This song teased me at the end by announcing Substitute, Happy Jack, and I'm a Boy were next. All great songs I love. :)

englishozzy The Raveonettes, "Pretty in Black", 2005 - Liked the first song but nowhere near as much as Nspan's selections...and I didn't really like the cover of the Shangri-La's...but despite this I still want the album based on the strength of Somewhere In Texas and Love in a Trashcan which I relistened to just to make sure.

Geezer Weezer, "Pinkerton", 1996 - Surprisingly I haven't listened to this album yet. I guess that's the problem with great debut albums - I keep going back to them instead of moving on. Still I love El Scorcho...and I have given The Green Album and their newest one a listen, so I should make the effort and check this one out too.

BleedBlackandGold Dead Kennedys, "Fresh Fruit For Rotting Vegetables", 1980 - I am not surprised to see this on your list. It's a bit of a must have for any lover of punk music. Great band and great album!
And Nspan - yes you need more. This album and the In God We Trust, Inc. EP are essential in a Dead Kennedys collection.

numbersix Miles Davis, “Kind of Blue”, 1959 - I just can't get into Jazz. Not even enough to know good from bad. I listened to the whole first song, which felt longer than it's ten minutes, and spent the whole time thinking I need something else to do while it's playing. Couldn't do it again for a second song.

silversurfer Beck, " Odelay", 1996 - Gotta disagree with you Surfer, but only in terms of subjective taste and opinion. I much prefer Mellow Gold over this (refer to my comment on Pinkerton), but it's still a very good album and I love Beck's creativity.

transformers Linkin Park, "Meteora", 2003 - I can tolerate a couple of Linkin Park songs (not these ones) but on the whole I am really not a fan.

Nspan Paul McCartney, "McCartney", 1970 - I haven't really heard any of his solo work. I went the other way with John Lennon instead. However I really got into Junk on just this one listen. Both my wife and I thought it had something special to it, while the first song was just pleasant but not special.

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Re: Fantaverse Top 100 Albums of All Time (THREAD #1): #70-#

Post by englishozzy »

The Who - Live at Leeds - 5/10
Weezer - Pinkerton - 7/10
Dead Kennedy's - Fresh Fruit for Rotting Vegetables - 6/10
Syd Barrett - The Madcap Laughs - 5/10
Miles Davis - Kind of Blue - 4/10
Beck - Odelay - 6/10
Linkin Park - Meteora - 10/10
Paul McCartney - McCartney - 6/10
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Re: Fantaverse Top 100 Albums of All Time (THREAD #1): #70-#

Post by NSpan »

This totally applies:

http://www.cracked.com/article_20065_5- ... ammed.html


By the way... I turned the music off on XCOM, though I left the sound effects on (gunfire, shouts, ethereal alien sounds, etc.) and I have Endtroducing... cranked. This album is fantastic. Definitely proof that creativity and sampling aren't mutually exclusive.
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Re: Fantaverse Top 100 Albums of All Time (THREAD #1): #70-#

Post by Leestu »

Fascinating article! Now I understand why I love sad songs so much :-)

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Re: Fantaverse Top 100 Albums of All Time (THREAD #1): #70-#

Post by silversurfer19 »

Album No.69

Alyson
To Be Added At Later Date

englishozzy
Genesis, "Duke"
, 1980

Image

"Behind the Lines"

"Alone Tonight"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUL3Zy6jxAY

Geezer
Against Me!, "New Wave"
, 2007

Image

1.New Wave – 4 stars
2.Up the Cuts – 5 stars
3.Thrash Unreal – 5 stars
4.White People for Peace – 5 stars
5.Stop – 3 stars
6.Bourne on the FM Waves – 4 stars
7.Piss and Vinegar – 3 stars
8.Americans Abroad – 3 stars
9.Animal – 2 stars
10.Ocean – 3 stars

This is arguably Against Me!'s most critically acclaimed and popular album. It is certainly the one that popularized them most, and marked a change in sound. It is also my least favorite of theirs. But when your worst album is #69 on the list, you're doing something very, very right. Unfortunately the last two songs bring the whole album down. Here's the three song stretch that make this album so great for me, with Thrash Unreal being the best, a song that was very high on my top 100 songs list.

"Up The Cuts"

"Thrash Unreal"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzJ21OpFnZ0
"White People for Peace"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RY9TbZMlTaI

BleedBlackandGold
Green Day, "Nimrod"
, 1997

Image

Green Day can do no wrong , plain and simple.

"The Grouch"


Leestu
Ministry, "ΚΕΦΑΛΗΞΘ"
, 1992

Image

There was something about Ministry, and this album in particular, that stood out in the industrial metal genre. It is more commonly known as Psalm 69

""Psalm 69""

"Just One Fix"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYsBvZRXF7A

NSpan
T-Rex, Dandy in the Underworld
, 1977

Image

SIDE ONE
"Dandy in the Underworld"
"Crimson Moon"
"Universe"
"I'm a Fool For You Girl"
"I Love to Boogie"
"Visions of Domino"

SIDE TWO
"Jason B. Sad"
"Groove a Little"
"The Soul of My Suit"
"Hang Ups"
"Pain and Love"
"Teen Riot Structure"

Re-listening to this album as I type, I can't help but think that it should probably have placed in my Top 50. It's amazingly consistent from start to finish. Marc Bolan had basically been written off by the time this album was ready to be released in 1977. It was widely agreed that his early 70s work was monumentally influential and that Bolan himself was a musical genius. But, as the world caught up to his style, his songwriting seemed to flounder a bit between 1974 and 1976. His sound had become experimental and it appeared that he was unsure of his own identity. What one must keep in mind is this: whereas David Bowie was a "musical chameleon" (latching on to what worked and having no problem shedding what had become passé), Marc Bolan was a true innovator with his own unique approach to music. Sure, his glam-rock style was theatrical (nearly to the point of histrionic)--but he wasn't wearing a mask. In fact: when the tables turned and T-Rex began looking to Bowie for inspiration, Marc Bolan hit a career low as he failed to successfully create new musical personas. T-Rex was strongest when Marc was being himself. 1977's Dandy in the Underworld is a snapshot of Bolan at his best: confident, creative, and fun. It was a major comeback--only to be marred by his tragic death only a few months after its release (thus making the album title morbidly appropriate).

This won't be my last T-Rex (or Bowie)-related entry in the countdown... so we can dive more into the Bolan/Bowie comparisons (and argue about who influenced who) down the line.

"Dandy in the Underworld"

"Groove a Little"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DPrN_xoXeM


numbersix
Death From Above 1979, “You’re A Woman, I’m A Machine”
, 2004

Image

And from the gentle side of Miles Davis to the profane and raucous DFA 79. One of the many ways to define a great album is simply one you tend to put on again and again. For a few years whenever I wasn’t sure that I wanted to listen to, I’d often be drawn to this accessible and fun rock album. In fact, I’m not even sure how to define it. Disco-metal? Glam-punk? Regardless, it’s effective in its simplicity: it’s just drums, bass, and vocals. And boy can this duo hammer out some awesome music. There is some variety within this package, such as the more contemplative Black History Month, but ultimately you’re in it for the explosive rock.

"Blood on Our Hands"

"Black History Month"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN6bNk-bW6w


Ron Burgundy
To be added at later date

silversurfer
Television, "Marquee Moon"
, 1977

Image

As six mentioned earlier, Marquee Moon is one of the most influential records in guitar history. Tom Verlaine and Richard Lloyd came together on this record to craft some of the most fantastic melodies and guitar interplay I've ever heard, the languid fluidity of their playing and how the structure of theirs songs came together is always a delight to my ears. They literally are one of the great guitar partnerships in history, I don't think any of their individual efforts worked even close to as good, but together they became something quite special. Inspiring guitar bands from such diverse acts as Talking Heads (listen to "See No Evil", it's uncanny and you can see in that band the direction the band may have taken had they stayed together), REM, Kings Of Leon and The Strokes, they effectively were instrumental in the music we hear today. But these guys were more than just influential, they were the creators of one of the most brilliantly constructed records of all time, from the multilayered brilliance of the title track to the imbued catchiness of the guitar lines in "Friction", this record is just a non-stop delight.

"Friction"

"See No Evil"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7L0IYPXKj8

transformers
Skeletonwitch, "Beyond the Permafrost"
, 2007

Image

Skeletonwitch is the perfect combo of old-school thrash and the evil sound of black metal. The best way to describe them is 80's Metallica with Satan as a vocalist. Really sinister, fun, and just flat-out badass metal with great vocals, riffs and solos.

"Upon Wings of Black"

"Within My Blood"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDVJ_JpIusc
Last edited by silversurfer19 on October 21st, 2012, 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fantaverse Top 100 Albums of All Time (THREAD #1): #70-#

Post by NSpan »

The title track on my T-Rex selection got cut short by YouTube... so, to make things right, one more from the album:
"The Soul of My Suit"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5epqxZxBwGo

---

englishozzy Genesis, "Duke", 1980
I just never understood the appeal. I listened to both of your song selections with an open mind... but I remain unmoved.

Geezer Against Me!, "New Wave", 2007
The vocals always bother me with this band. On this album, the singer sounds like Dee Snider... and the music--oddly--sounds more like early 80s arena rock than the usual pop-punk I expected.

BleedBlackandGold Green Day, "Nimrod", 1980
1980, eh? And--to think--I was about to say that I don't particularly hate their "early work!"

Leestu Ministry, "ΚΕΦΑΛΗΞΘ", 1992
Due to their legacy, I've been curious about these guys... but I never got around to giving them a proper listen (apart from some exposure as a kid from a friend who was always playing Skinny Puppy or KMFDM). Both of your featured songs had some appeal to me. These guys really rock when they want to. I might check out more sometime.

numbersix Death From Above 1979, “You’re A Woman, I’m A Machine”, 2004
This stuff rocked. The guitarless approach sounds like a gimmick, but the music itself proves otherwise. It's rhythm-heavy, for sure, but the bass is tuned in such a way that it sounds more like a lead instrument--and, with some help from a piano/synth and solid vocals--there's plenty of melody to go around. I preferred the first track. A bit reminiscent of Electric Six (in terms of delivery rather than approach).

silversurfer Television, "Marquee Moon", 1997
Who's in charge of these release dates? I'm almost positive this is from 1996. You guys might be surprised at just how high this made it on my list. Absolutely brilliant album.

transformers Skeletonwitch, "Beyond the Permafrost", 2007
Not bad. But I'm not a fan of Satan's vocals.
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Re: Fantaverse Top 100 Albums of All Time (THREAD #1): #70-#

Post by silversurfer19 »

NSpan wrote: silversurfer Television, "Marquee Moon", 1997
Who's in charge of these release dates? I'm almost positive this is from 1996. You guys might be surprised at just how high this made it on my list. Absolutely brilliant album.
Hah! Thoroughly deserved. That's what I get for using the quote tool and copying and pasting all the picks! Will amend asap...

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Re: Fantaverse Top 100 Albums of All Time (THREAD #1): #70-#

Post by numbersix »

Ozzy: Never been a big fan of Genesis, though i don't know a lot. The first song had interesting moments to it, but the second wasn't great.

Geezer: Probably the best of the pop-punk acts you've posted. Still didn't blow me away, but the first song was decent. How do you feel about the lead singer announcing he's now a she?

John L: Like NSpan, I can listen to their first two records, and while that song was okay I don't think I'd be interested in hearing more.

Leetsu: Got a bit scary there for a bit. It was okay, but it didn't draw me in.

NSpan: I was wondering when one of T.Rex's albums would pop up. I've never liked them, though I do recall enjoying one or two of the songs you posted in your Top 100. These selections didn't do a whole lot for me, so maybe I'm going to revert to the ultimate music fan cliche of saying I probably prefer his earlier stuff.

Ss: Nice pick. Glad to see some Television appreciation here. You know, I haven't got their follow-up record yet. Have you?

Tranny: Sometimes metal sounds like the record is being played at the wrong speed. Those guys need to slow down, take it easy. They'll live longer.

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Re: Fantaverse Top 100 Albums of All Time (THREAD #1): #70-#

Post by silversurfer19 »

numbersix wrote:Ss: Nice pick. Glad to see some Television appreciation here. You know, I haven't got their follow-up record yet. Have you?
Can't say I have. I've heard a couple of tracks off Adventure and a little of Tom Verlaine's 80s stuff, but nothing has ever really captured the magic of this record. I think they had an album out in the 90s too after they reformed, but I know nothing of it.

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