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Re: Lost

Postby Geezer » May 24th, 2010, 11:30 pm

What exactly was the "twist" because I didn't pick up on one really. Because you assumed something, that means it was how it was supposed to be? You are absolutely right that the "alternate reality" started after Juliet set off the bomb. What was the real reason they wanted to set off that bomb? You could say that it was because they all wanted to have a second chance at their lives, but hell, do you really believe that, especially after the past two episodes? Their lives all sucked. They needed the Island, but more importantly, they needed each other. They set that bomb off because they thought, in some cosmic universe, that it would allow them a second chance to be with all the people that were important to them. And, as Juliet said in the Season 6 premier, It worked.

If you think this had nothing to do with the concept of the show, I don't know what show you were watching. Unless you just really cared that much about where the Polar Bears came from.
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Re: Lost

Postby frendo » May 25th, 2010, 3:38 am

Dude, NOTHING in the finale had anything to do with the plot at all before the last season. The twist was that the 'alternate reality' was a purgatory of some sort. And the bomb was so they could start fresh, and so Jack wouldn't be responsible for all who died from his actions. They expressed that pretty openly. And yes, none of it had anything to do with the show prior to the last season.

And I did care about where the bears came from. And what was the big deal about Walt and his powers. And the numbers, which were only somewhat explained. And so on... You know, the parts that made the show intriguing.

And then there are other matters. Why didn't Jack and Desmond become smoke monsters when they entered the light, the way smoke monster did?

I, and many others, feel more and more cheated the more it's being thought about.

Also, just putting characters who were in love together in the end over loud and dramatic music isn't character development. It's emotional manipulation.
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Re: Lost

Postby numbersix » May 25th, 2010, 3:43 am

frendo wrote:And I did care about where the bears came from. And what was the big deal about Walt and his powers. And the numbers, which were only somewhat explained. And so on... You know, the parts that made the show intriguing.


Well, they did explain the bears and the numbers. Not so much Walt, though.
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Re: Lost

Postby W » May 25th, 2010, 4:02 am

Am I wrong, or didn't they say that the Dharma guys brought wildlife (including polar bears) to the island as part of their research? I thought that was explained thoroughly earlier... That's neither here nor there. I feel like the ending was a cop out and one of the easiest, obvious ways to end it. I don't think very much of it was planned before, say, mid-2008. It reminds me of the Roseanne finale where the last season they become rich and in the last episode they say it was a dream. Half of the last season was put there just for the finale and had nothing to do with anything before it. If that isn't a cop out, I don't know what is...

They should probably go back to the hatch discovery and start all over again.


Anyways, what were your favorite characters. Mine were pre-whiny Ben, the first few seasons of Locke, Mr. Eko, Charlie, and sometimes Jin, Desmond, Bernard, and Rose. The worst were easily Ana Lucia, Shannon, Boone, Nikki, Paolo, and Crazy Claire. They sure knew who to kill off at least.
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Re: Lost

Postby numbersix » May 25th, 2010, 5:43 am

Here's my general reaction to what happened in Lost at the end.

It was befitting of the show. I don't know about you guys but since Season 3 I felt the show was wacky, occasionally enjoyable, but in no way were the writers sure of what they were doing. Answering question with more question, did you really think the show would neatly tie things up?

As for the cop-out, I think I know what you mean. It was, as Sawyer said, a long con. We were led to believe that there was a link between the Flash Sideways and what was happening on the island. There was a sense of urgency to what Desmond was doing, for example. But of course, there was no connection. The flash sideways was indeed a sort of purgatory that would have everyone come together once they all died (which I imagine is centuries later considering Ben and Hurley were now "touched"), all created by their collective unconscious. However, I do resent that the writers were deliberately trying to trick us by doing things like showing us the island under water, with Jack having a kid, etc. None of these make much sense once you realise what the Flash-sideways really is. It reminds me of Shutter Island, except without the great visuals as consolation.

But at least there was some sort of emotional release, as the idea of everyone meeting one last time got us, as the audience, to say goodbye to our favourite characters. And as for explaining things.... I guess it explained some things, right? The island seemed to be the connecting point between this world and the "next", whavever that may be. The light the island is protecting is Death/Heaven/Ragnarok/Whatever. By shutting off the light humanity's access to the afterlife would be cut off. Does that make Smokey the Devil? Maybe. I'm not saying this is a great answer, but it's a sort of answer nonetheless.

So ultimately, I'm somewhat satisfied. Then again, it's been a while since I really enjoyed the show so that' probably why I'm not outraged.
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Re: Lost

Postby Geezer » May 25th, 2010, 12:24 pm

frendo wrote:Dude, NOTHING in the finale had anything to do with the plot at all before the last season. The twist was that the 'alternate reality' was a purgatory of some sort. And the bomb was so they could start fresh, and so Jack wouldn't be responsible for all who died from his actions. They expressed that pretty openly. And yes, none of it had anything to do with the show prior to the last season.

And I did care about where the bears came from. And what was the big deal about Walt and his powers. And the numbers, which were only somewhat explained. And so on... You know, the parts that made the show intriguing.

And then there are other matters. Why didn't Jack and Desmond become smoke monsters when they entered the light, the way smoke monster did?

I, and many others, feel more and more cheated the more it's being thought about.

Also, just putting characters who were in love together in the end over loud and dramatic music isn't character development. It's emotional manipulation.


Clearly, you are the "other" type of Lost fan. Everything about this show that made me want to keep watching episode after episode didn't have anything to do with smoke monsters, or polar bears, or time travel. It had everything to do with the fact that I cared about these people. That is what kept me intrigued, from episode one. That is why the first season is still the best, in my opinion. The character development was immaculate, and the way they sent them off, was fitting. I would have been a lot more pissed if they had no resolution to that aspect of the show than anything else. Nothing about this show was ever concrete. There were never any real "answers." It wasn't that type of show. Its a show that was supposed to make you think, to question your beliefs, to wonder about the world around you and your relationships to it and others. Everything else in the show, was just one, huge MacGuffin.
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Re: Lost

Postby frendo » May 25th, 2010, 12:47 pm

By "other" type of LOST fan, I imagine you mean someone intelligent enough to NOT get swept away by lovers reuniting to loud, melodramatic music, or by an ending confirming the existence of an afterlife so as to make all the deaths on the island no longer painful, yet also unnecessary? Or is it one who actually expects a resolution to questions promised after S(X YEARS of faithful viewing?

Though it may be a writer thing. Every screenwriter I've heard discuss it have expressed the same thing. James Gunn said "The finale was like having a weak orgasm after a really great fuck" which is about right.
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Re: Lost

Postby frendo » May 25th, 2010, 12:52 pm

numbersix wrote:
frendo wrote:And I did care about where the bears came from. And what was the big deal about Walt and his powers. And the numbers, which were only somewhat explained. And so on... You know, the parts that made the show intriguing.


Well, they did explain the bears and the numbers. Not so much Walt, though.


See, I felt the numbers explanation was weak at best. It was the numbers next to the remaining candidates, but at the time they were used, there were WAY more candidates. And then some of the numbered ones died before the end, so it wasn't all those who would make it. I think they just threw them there when they saw a chance to do so.

I don't remember hearing much about the polar bears, but it may have been brought by dharma. Not hearing about Walt is bullshit, considering how important he was to the first season (even being taken by the others), and how much time they spent showing his powers.
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Re: Lost

Postby numbersix » May 25th, 2010, 1:06 pm

frendo wrote:See, I felt the numbers explanation was weak at best. It was the numbers next to the remaining candidates, but at the time they were used, there were WAY more candidates. And then some of the numbered ones died before the end, so it wasn't all those who would make it. I think they just threw them there when they saw a chance to do so.


No, I think the Lost Experience online game thing explained the numbers. They were part of an equation that calculated when humanity would extinguish itself. The numbers were the main factors, and the point of the dharma Initiative was to experiment on the island in order to change those numbers and thus save humanity. Now how and why they "cursed" Hurley I'll never know.... something Jacob arranged perhaps

frendo wrote:I don't remember hearing much about the polar bears, but it may have been brought by dharma.

Yeah, Dharma were experimenting in animals and how they adapt to different environments.

frendo wrote: Not hearing about Walt is bullshit, considering how important he was to the first season (even being taken by the others), and how much time they spent showing his powers.

Agreed, he got sidelined and that didn't make much sense.
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Re: Lost

Postby Geezer » May 25th, 2010, 1:12 pm

I guess I'm just too dumb not to get an emotional attachment to characters that have kept me completely engaged from episode one. I guess I'm too dumb to care about a bunch of random occurrences that never made any sense to begin with. I guess I'm not smart enough to realize that the show never started to decline as soon as they started to make things too complicated and introducing way too many angles that they would never be able to wrap up in the time frame they allotted, that actually made the show better. I guess I'm not sophisticated enough to be unsatisfied by an ending that wrapped up the heart of the show, and not so much the brain. I guess I'm not intelligent enough, because I didn't say at the end of "Notorious," "But wait a minute, what is the government going to do about the fact that the Germans have Uranium!!!" Or "What the hell was in that damn Pulp Fiction brief case!"

So because this sort of heaven exists, and it was confirmed by the final episode of a six year voyage, I never felt what I felt during those seasons? The pain and emotion just never happened? Of course we grieve when those acts occur. Of course that pain exists! But at least we know that the pain is not eternal! Or at least that is one of the messages the show wanted to portray. Love lost/Love found has been one of the central running themes of the entire show, and to end on a happy note, of love found, is not a cop out, or a manipulation, but more a way to send the show out on a positive message, as to not make its viewers think, well shit there really is no hope. Oh wait, thats just for the stupid crowd. All the smart folk were paying attention to electromagnetism, glowing lights, and the quantum mechanics of time travel.

I'm sorry you were disappointed that the finale wasn't an encyclopedia-like diagram of where everything came from and what everything meant, but to me, that would have been exceptionally boring, and wouldn't have done any justice to what the show was all about, its characters, its themes, and its philosophical questions. Sometimes, things are better left unsaid. Or maybe thats only true to the morons of the world. I'm sorry you didn't get your curiosity about a bunch of stuff that again, never made sense in the first place, didn't get cured, but us morons, who actually watched because we cared about the people, not the numbers, were definitely satisfied.

Here's what happened to Walt: he grew up, had a growth spurt and looked like a man and not a boy, so in the timeline of the show, it wouldn't have worked!!! I know you loved the fantasy land, but the show could only be shot in the real world, and this was a legitimate problem. You actually thought he was going to be back? Didn't your ultra cool source tell you this was an issue? So he got off the Island, they escaped, he lived with his Grandmother and lived happily ever after, never getting back to the Island. What exactly made him so important anyway? Because the Others wanted him? Didn't you notice they wanted every child, not just Walt, and they kidnapped them all?
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Re: Lost

Postby numbersix » May 25th, 2010, 1:21 pm

I understand your point Geez, and I for one am certainly not advocating that the show should have explained everything. But I think it just introduced far too many things that didn't make sense and weren't addressed with, and when that becomes so glaringly evident the whole thing comes across as sloppy and it's hard to emotionally engage with the characters. At least that's what happened to me, as I loved the first 2 seasons and gradually got bored. You make the reference to Pulp Fiction, which is a very pertinant point. But Lost would only be like Pulp Fiction if roughly half the film was about things like the glow in the briefcase, and had other weird things happening that werne't addressed. It's a question of balance and I wish the writers just simplified it as the show progressed.

As for Walt, the first 2 series portrayed him as being very important. He caused birds to crash into windows. He had the ability to appear as a vision to people. He was deemed "special" in ways unlike any of the other children. Your point about him growing up can be taking if the writers didn't make an effort to make a big deal out of him. If they hadn't I wouldn't be wondering about him, but his story and his "abilities" were left dangling in the wind, hence the mild frustration.
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Re: Lost

Postby frendo » May 25th, 2010, 1:33 pm

Wow, I'm surprised you were able to write that all by yourself! Good for you!

I'm sorry issues like quantum mechanics bored you. And I do know that those of us who actually expected answers to all questions raised just expected too much, and should just be happy with "it was all a dream, and they lived happily ever after", but it just isn't so.

On the real tip though, if you're going to pretentiously label people as "other" fans because they don't agree with your opinion, your going to get shit that right back in your face, man. That's just how it is.

As for Walt, I did hear that. And my next thought was MAYBE THEY SHOULD HAVE THOUGHT OF THAT WHEN WRITING IT! It's not like there isn't an ample period to think of these things ahead of time, and no excuse not to.

And you do realize, in that whole last diatribe, you were defending getting emotionally attached to your TV SET. Emotionally invested is one thing, and any good drama should and will do that. Emotionally attached is just sad...
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Re: Lost

Postby Geezer » May 25th, 2010, 1:34 pm

numbersix wrote:I understand your point Geez, and I for one am certainly not advocating that the show should have explained everything. But I think it just introduced far too many things that didn't make sense and weren't addressed with, and when that becomes so glaringly evident the whole thing comes across as sloppy and it's hard to emotionally engage with the characters. At least that's what happened to me, as I loved the first 2 seasons and gradually got bored. You make the reference to Pulp Fiction, which is a very pertinant point. But Lost would only be like Pulp Fiction if roughly half the film was about things like the glow in the briefcase, and had other weird things happening that werne't addressed. It's a question of balance and I wish the writers just simplified it as the show progressed.

As for Walt, the first 2 series portrayed him as being very important. He caused birds to crash into windows. He had the ability to appear as a vision to people. He was deemed "special" in ways unlike any of the other children. Your point about him growing up can be taking if the writers didn't make an effort to make a big deal out of him. If they hadn't I wouldn't be wondering about him, but his story and his "abilities" were left dangling in the wind, hence the mild frustration.


Yeah, but do you really think the writers, when going through the first two seasons, really had all of this planned out? I'm sure they didn't even know the show would last past two seasons. It may have just merely been a mistake by a group of writers not to expect this young actor to grow all of a sudden in a way that would affect their timeline, but I don't think it was any big issue the way they wrote him off the show. He escaped, plain and simple. Good for him.

As for your other point, it is well taken, but I guess for me, all of that stuff was never really that important to me. It was all just in there to drive the plot. To give the characters a test. to put them in situations to see how they would deal with them. The definition of the term MacGuffin. Pretty much the only really important thing to me was the numbers, and what they meant, that was one thing that really intrigued me, and I'll admit the explanation was a little weak. But thats just another reason why I say that some things are better left unexplained. What if they did take the time to explain all of this weird stuff that they made up, and your reaction was "well none of that makes any sense at all!" Wouldn't that make you more pissed than an ending that takes care of the heart of the show, its characters, and leaves all that other stuff open to discussion, contemplation, and ultimately, your own interpretation? I say an open ending is better than a nonsensical ending.
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Re: Lost

Postby Geezer » May 25th, 2010, 1:43 pm

frendo wrote:Wow, I'm surprised you were able to write that all by yourself! Good for you!

I'm sorry issues like quantum mechanics bored you. And I do know that those of us who actually expected answers to all questions raised just expected too much, and should just be happy with "it was all a dream, and they lived happily ever after", but it just isn't so.

On the real tip though, if you're going to pretentiously label people as "other" fans because they don't agree with your opinion, your going to get shit that right back in your face, man. That's just how it is.

As for Walt, I did hear that. And my next thought was MAYBE THEY SHOULD HAVE THOUGHT OF THAT WHEN WRITING IT! It's not like there isn't an ample period to think of these things ahead of time, and no excuse not to.

And you do realize, in that whole last diatribe, you were defending getting emotionally attached to your TV SET. Emotionally invested is one thing, and any good drama should and will do that. Emotionally attached is just sad...


Sorry, I should have merely explained that better. I feel there are two types of Lost fans. Those driven by the characters, and those driven by the science fiction. Sure there will be a cross-over into both for everyone, but I think its a pretty good bet that everyone that watched the show leaned one way or the other. Obviously those that leaned your way would be disappointed by the ending. I wasn't saying that the "other" Lost fans were stupid, just that they watched the show for different reasons than I. What bothers me, is that because your own personal interests were not satisfied in the finale, you call it an outright piece of garbage television.

Yes, as I said, they should have thought about it while writing it. But I don't think these guys were all that accomplished when they started, and as a collective, they were just trying to keep the show on the air. I don't think they finally figured out where they were going until sometime in season 4, after the Walt issue had been taken care of by getting him off the Island.

I absolutely will defend getting emotionally attached to my tv set, or movie screen, and I would hope that anyone else on this website would attest to the same thing. If you can't get emotionally attached, its probably not worth watching, and certainly not for 6 seasons. What is the difference between emotionally invested and emotionally attached? Is it just semantics? If I cry watching a sad movie or episode of a tv show, am I "just sad" because I allow myself to be moved? Because I would hope that those of us that have dedicated ourselves to so much discussion on a website about the wonderful world of film would be able to understand that.
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Re: Lost

Postby frendo » May 25th, 2010, 1:48 pm

Part of my disappointment may come from having heard, from the first season on, that the whole six season plotline was already in place. They stated that how it all was to unfold was known, and then promised no "it was a dream" ending, and no Sopranos ending. So, if they did have it written ahead of time, they should have thought about Walt getting older, and they should have had a way to wrap up everything. And then I felt the end was tantamount to "it was all a dream" almost exactly, but just done different enough to make it seem new. If I hadn't heard all that, and been expecting something from it, I probably would have been more happy.

As for everything else, I do see what you meant now and apologize for any offense on my end.
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